Another Question

[desoto_hia873]

A question for members of my flist who live across the pond: when should one refer to England, when Great Britain, and when the United Kingdom? Are there historical time frames for any or all of these? My cod are currently hanging out in the early 1800s and the author is using all three terms interchangeably.

Comments

[cindergal.livejournal.com]

I'm not British, but I've always thought that England is a part of Great Britain which is a part of the UK. Great Britain = England, Scotland, Wales. And the UK includes N. Ireland? But the 1800's seems kind of early for the term UK.

I'll be curious to see if I'm right.

Not that I use these terms correctly, mind you. ;-)

[desoto-hia873.livejournal.com]

speakr2customers seems to agree with you. (See the next reply.)

[speakr2customrs.livejournal.com]

The United Kingdom's full name today is the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Between 1801 and 1927 it was the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland.

England is one of the four countries that make up the United Kingdom. This was created by the Act of Union 1800 and took effect 1 January 1801. The four countries were at that time England, Scotland, Wales, and Ireland. Ireland was replaced by Northern Ireland in December 1922 when Southern Ireland became independent as the Irish Free State, although the full name of the United Kingdom was not changed until 1927.

Great Britain is the land mass that contains England, Scotland, and Wales. Between 1707 and 1800 the term 'Great Britain' was also used for the united kingdoms of England and Scotland and the principality of Wales.

'Britain' is just a short version of 'Great Britain' but is sometimes also used as a short version of 'The British Isles'. The British Isles is a different thing to Great Britain because it includes the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man, which are not part of either Great Britain or of the United Kingdon.

[desoto-hia873.livejournal.com]

Wow, you really know your history!

So, if a treaty was signed in the 1800s between that English-speaking place and, say, France or the U.S., which geographical/political entity would you say had signed it? If the answer is the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, what would be the proper short-form?

How interchangeable are the terms "English" and "British" when referring to the nationality of ships fishing the Grand Banks in the 1800s (the point being to distinguish them from the French and the Americans)?

I'll stop asking questions now. Thanks for your help!

[speakr2customrs.livejournal.com]

The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland. And there wan't any acceptable short form as far as treaties were concerned. However in common parlance it would have been described as 'a treaty with Britain' or 'a treaty with the British'. 'The UK' didn't really catch on as a descriptor until after WW2.

'English' was often used even when incorrect. Nelson's famous signal at Trafalgar was 'England expects every man to do his duty', but the Scots, Welsh, and Irish sailors didn't neglect their duty in protest (because they'd have been flogged if they had!). A lot of the fishing boats would have been Scottish, and 'British' would be the correct term, but for someone to refer to them all as 'English' wouldn't be at all surprising.